- Sin is Sin, all can be redeemed except if you quit caring altogether about redemption anyway.
- There is not simply a list of "Deep Doo-Doo Sins" we should avoid. All sin should be avoided.
- Paul and a bunch of other really smart important people in the Bible sinned.
- There was one perfect person and that was Jesus Christ.
- The goal for us poor Earthly schmucks is to seek redemption, aim for righteousness, but not expect perfection in ourselves or others.
The question I have for you today is:
In Romans 7:14-25 is Paul saying that he, the Great Apostle, author of a huge portion of the New Testament, struggled with sin even as he advanced one of the greatest Christian ministries of all time?
If so, where do we get the ideas that today's Christian leaders (e.g., pastors, etc.) should step down if they commit an especially public sin like say, just for example, divorce?
Is that a Biblical teaching or a man-made addition?
Anyone know?
I'm meeting with a pastor later today so I may know more tomorrow (about the role of Christian leaders and certain kinds of sins - but also just in general. He's a really smart guy. He's also gonna help me back-up my PC. Please still back-up my PC, BP :)
You are in my prayers today as always. Thanks for reading! xoxox, Cheeks
9 comments:
We all struggle with sin - we are not and never will be perfect as earthly beings. So how do leaders deal with their own faults? Paul saw Jesus as standing between himself and God, bridging the gap and providing the way to God. He acknowledges the state of struggle and doesn't pretend that looking to Jesus takes away the struggle - Jesus works "through" us not "instead" of us in the battle against sin. So, who is the real leader - Jesus. We can not ignore our downfalls just because we lead a major organization or small christian group. Paul shows us that even though the law is good, it can't save us - and we need a Savior.
Linda Ross
Beautiful, thank you.
I'm not a church leader but think if I was, my sins may be a bigger burden because of the "example setting" role inherent in leading.
Even though God gives us great examples like the one from Paul in Romans us humans seem to expect our leaders to do better than the rest of us.
Glad to have freedom to screw up freely like everyone else. Hope that pastors and church elders feel the same.
Seems like there's a lot of pressure on Christian leaders to try to maintain a "higher standard."
Wonder what that must feel like.
I dated a pastor that is divorced. Suicide crossed his mind often. (very sad, but I guess common in that case) Then he found a church that "gets it" and now he is doing God's work in a church setting again. But was pushed out because the big D from his previous church. We all need to have more Grace with each other. I personally would like to see more divorced pastors. What do you think?
I am, by some church standards (and church people) a fallen pastor. What did I do? I remained faithful to an abusive wife, sought years of fruitless counseling and finally decided to take action and put the welfare of myself and my children above my career or what any one thought. To say I have been misunderstood, judged, slandered and put off is an understatement. It is one of the best decisions of my life and my only regret is perhaps not doing it years earlier to save my children the pain they continue to sort through over three years after the fact.
Paul, in his letters to Timothy set the standards for church leaders as being “higher” than those who do not ascribe to such leadership. I have been in conversation with some of my fellow car salesman and they dropped a term on me that I hadn’t heard before in the same context: they had heard that I was in the “called” profession. I understood what they were saying, but asked them to explain. I told them I resigned from full time vocational ministry, but they said “no,” you are always “called.” They went on to explain how they have questioned the “calling” on some of their pastors over the years. Interesting side note that I think helps bring light to the confusion of what people understand about the position and expectations of the “pastor” or leader in ministry. God sets the standard in scripture through and through of His leaders and we also see how miserably many of them fail: i.e.: Moses, Abraham and Sarah, Jonah, the Apostles, etc.
I think that people mistakenly put pastors and several leaders on a pedestal (and many pastors enjoy being up there) and expect them and their families to be practically perfect. This is completely unrealistic and unhealthy as well as unbiblical. Some leaders neglect to show their “human side” in their public ministry and further complicate the issue.
There are so many dangers in the way we view each other as Christians. We tend to elevate the beautiful, the successful, the gifted and ignore or overlook others. We tend to gravitate to those who make us feel good (sometimes with wrong motives) and those we view as being the beautiful or gifted or successful. We prop the leaders up and give them star status and are way to quick to judge and knock them down when they fail. Is this they way Jesus taught us to act? Definitely not. Jesus humbled Himself and took on the form of a servant even though He was God. I believe we have a way too human system of running church, ministries and most things “Christian.”
If a leader falls, they should humbly confess before God, his family and those he leads and should allow him or herself to submit to authorities over them to look for direction for their future and their ministry future. Too many times things are swept under the rug so to speak and the truth is never brought to light. I think this is a grave mistake in churches and ministry organizations. Come clean and realize we live as fallen (but thankfully redeemed) individuals in a fallen world. None of us will ever be perfect this side of heaven – even though the Bible says we should strive daily for this. We should live with mercy and grace and holiness should be the standard all of us should strive for in every area of our lives.
Wow. Thank you j and anonymous. You are an answer to prayer. This is a topic close to my heart and more importantly, I think a very important one for the church.
Please continue to speak about this topic. You are a gift, both of you and beautiful examples of shiny loving church ladies (even if you're not ladies) (you know what I mean).
Thanks again for sharing your eloquent thoughts and your hearts with us. Keep fighting the good fight -- wherever you are -- whatever your "calling."
Bless you, Cheeky
I think the issue here is EXAMPLE! Paul was just one of many in scripture who furthered the gospel. He was no greater in God's eyes than you or I. We will all be accountable for our actions, whether a
pastor, church leader or layman in the church then or now. If the person in question is a "stumbling block" to all those "in his charge," that is a huge problem. I feel the person's HEART is what God looks at. Is the person
repentent, remorseful, desirous of turning from the sin and moving on with his/her ministry? Or, is the person blatantly resistant to change,
knowingly, deliberately, consciously remaining in the sin in question?
Whether a pastor or person in leadership should leave the ministry is such a sensitive topic. There are so many issues and people involved. Trusting the Holy Spirit to direct those responsible for making the decisions is so important.
Hi Donna, thanks for your comments. Really appreciate your perspective.
I'd love hear more about how elders make decisions regarding who should step down or not be allowed to serve in the first place.
Surely the Holy Spirit provides direction but are decisions like this also based on the "severity" or "type" of sin? Or is the sinner's willingness to change and repent the main consideration?
I've only been a bystander; never been a part of that decision-making process.
So how's that 'puter running Cheeky? :)
BP
You are too funny! It's working better than ever, thanks to you. Please see my reply to your comment on the "other" blog. Totally sapped out on you again. Sorry! Maybe it's menopause?! :) -S
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